Curse

Kai Nui · Sep 24, 2006, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Alright, now I have been thinking this for a long time, and the recent Nightfall Preview brought this back to me. Now I know there are a lot of PVE carebears out there no offense, and you probably don't want to feel robbed. Well I am not going to cry to you about how I used to get 90 consecutive TA wins before Gladiator titles came out, so we're equal.

Now I constantly remember that the game is based upon player skill, not time spent grinding. Of course that's obviously not the case, and I'm not going to suggest removing the faction system altogether, I am going to make a suggestion that will lessen some of the grind. Here's the way I see it: I get on Guild Wars because it's a game. And when I want to play a game, I want ot have fun. So without further ado (sp?) here it is:

I started playing and noticed that whoopie the first mission is like factions, which I totally hate, stupid race against the clock ugh. But then I noticed, Koss was friggin pimped out. He had everything I had unlocked and I could control him! That's what I call fun, and I'm sure a lot of people enjoyed that. Now, why can't our PVE characters be like that?

Sure, I can see how maybe we should have to unlock our skills for a while is one thing, and letting us still do it later, but I think we shouldn't be always bound to it. My learning time is over, I already got to level 20, why do I need to still unlock skills painstakingly for my PVE that I may or may not have unlocked already? Does that really make any sense to anyone? Sure, it is its own certain character, but that doesn't mean we should have to grind for skills anymore does it? I earned some of those skills fair and square, and yet I don't have them? Blasphemy! Sure, I can see how it's made to be its own special character, but once you get to having 3 chapters + getting all skills in PVE is kind of ridiculous. That's an insane amount of farming for skill points, and I know, I've been there. Why should we have to do something like that, especially if we earned the skills already? I mean you gotta remember, it is a game, so rolling out a pvp character doesn't make a lot of sense in the real world, so why not let our PVE characters get the skills we've already unlocked?

"How can this fit in?! This is stupid!" - voice of unreason in the back of my head

Well that's quite a simple thing. Sure in the learning process you are only dealing with a few skills and less attribute points, but once you get up to level 20 PVE with all your attribute points and max armor and stuff, then you're getting serious. So why should these PVP equivilents be forced to work for something you've already earned? I mean you are the same person playing right, unless you've got schizophrenia, in which case I feel sorry for you. So to answer my own voice of unreason, I say that ascension should set you free to the unlocked wonders of the universe. Afterall, your henchmen can do it, your pvp characters can do it, your mom can do it, so why can't you do it? If ascension is really too early on in your oppinion, why not let ascension unlock all core skills, then upon the completion of the Protector title do you gain the skills of that campaign on that character. (And keep in mind, you're only unlocking skills you're previously unlocked, not every single skill unless you have really unlocked them)

Any way you slice it, I still believe you should be able to say, "I am unsure of what strategy to use for this mission," as opposed to saying, "I am unable to use that strategy for this mission, I need to farm some more money & skill points..."

-Kai Nui

Zui · Sep 24, 2006, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Not a bad idea, but it's not going to happen.

By the way, it's Multiple Personality Disorder

One Swordsman · Sep 24, 2006, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Player Skill > Time Grinded (Ground?)

Sorry I rofl'd, Time ground xD

Kool Pajamas · Sep 24, 2006, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Maybe something at the end of game that allows you to do this. I think that would be fair. You will still have to earn your way through like normal, then once you finish you get access to all the unlocked skills you have. Maybe you get an "Amulet of Knowledge" after you finish the game. Take the amulet to the Temple of Balthazar to give you access to all your currently unlocked skills on that character. The amulet would have to be customized to that character of course.

actionjack · Sep 24, 2006, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Didn't you post something about this before already?

Also there is another nice thread with lots disscussion about it (sadly, I forgot what is search key word, so couldn't find it.... try look few page back)

Why do we need to unlock skills? The Dev could simply made unlock all if they want. However, since it is a RPG, and one big part of the "Attraction" of a RPG is the character development. People tend to enjoy (to a certin degree) training up their character, and getting the skill for them is part of that.

Keep in mind that the "once the skill got unlock, other character can get that skill at the trainer" wasn't in the orignal game before, it was added per suggestion and popular demand.

I do agree that it is a drag to have to re-get the skill again. Many people suggsted that have the price of getting the already unlock skill be cheaper, or even free.

Now, here is another thing to keep in mind.... you only have 8 skills on your skill bar, and that is all you need. So in theroy, it is your playing experience that will help you reduce the grind, as you would know already what 8 skills you want on your new character, thus, you only really need to grind for that 8 skill, which should not be too hard.

Anyhow, hope that point will get cross to you. What I hope to see more of an improvement is the end-game skill point grind (for that 14k+ of exp and that 1k gold). I think it could be improve by several ways.

Zui · Sep 24, 2006, 08:18 AM // 08:18

@actionjack, yes, some people enjoy grind. Others absolutly hate it. About the unlocks thing, every single person who plays PvP that I know absolutly hates the unlock system, because it is pointless grind that doesn't need to exist at all...

As for only needing 8 skills, that is wrong. Some people may want to PvP on their PvEs for an added advantage, because PvP charactars are inferior to PvPs in every way that matters competitively currently. Odds are you're going to change skills and builds, and will need at least 3+ Elite Skills and 50+ 'normal' Skills. Maybe you're just going to PvE with your PvE and never planning on PvPing with them at all, in which case, you're going to adjust your tactics to every different area, if you have the skills to do so. Why? Becuase there's no point to using a skillset that is entirely ineffecient for the task at hand. Would you run Ward Against Melee against a group of foes that has absolutly no melee attackers? What about Ward Of Stability in an area where the foes have absolutly no knockdowns at all?

Knightsaber Sith · Sep 24, 2006, 05:10 PM // 17:10

This sounds exactly like a thread from a few weeks back where someone demanded that all skills unlocked on your account be available to all characters for free.......

There is a difference between not wanting to grind; and just wanting things handed to you for free. Just cause you have to put forth a little effort to earn something; doesn't make it a grind.

/notsigned

Plushie Penguin · Sep 24, 2006, 06:11 PM // 18:11

maybe if AN had made the titan quests open your unlocked skills, maybe they would be worth doing.....

Solar_Takfar · Sep 24, 2006, 07:56 PM // 19:56

hum. I like skills as they are. Rather, I prefer as they were on Prophecies, where it took a while longer before we had access to everything; the learning process felt a bit more natural and you had chance (and motivation) to try out more skills. As it is in factions/nightfall, you have to buy every skill, and since price ramps up very quickly, you end up only ever getting those skills you think will be more useful based on their description (or external sources that comment on it), and you just might miss out on using a good/fun skill.

Asmodeus The Hunter · Sep 24, 2006, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Not elites though.... PVE characters should not be able to use all elites, they should have to capture them for each character. That way, it would leave an element of challenge and not hurt the Skill Hunter title

Zeek Aran · Sep 24, 2006, 10:50 PM // 22:50

"I mean you are the same person playing right, unless you've got schizophrenia, in which case I feel sorry for you." *lmao*

Besides my warrior who passed virtual level 100 and my assassin who is soloing the shards of armor right off of Sunreach and Falaharn's chests, my characters don't have much exp. (300k+-) and I have never (ever) reached 0 skill points. o.O

Kai Nui · Sep 25, 2006, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionjack

Didn't you post something about this before already?

Yep, and then again I started a thread a while back about the Final Straw on Secondary Professions when battle isles came out, and I couldn't change my secondary through the Hero [H] screen and there were several copies. Just look at today, now we HAVE it, although not on H, it's on Skills, good enough, same effect, asking for unreasonable things to be changed is not a crime, especially if it's been ignored, I don't feel like we should have to dig up old corpses. And besides I added a new spin of how Koss inspired me to do it -- totally different.

Also there is another nice thread with lots disscussion about it (sadly, I forgot what is search key word, so couldn't find it.... try look few page back)

Yeah and that too.

Why do we need to unlock skills? The Dev could simply made unlock all if they want. However, since it is a RPG, and one big part of the "Attraction" of a RPG is the character development. People tend to enjoy (to a certin degree) training up their character, and getting the skill for them is part of that.

They did add it, but I've already paid for prophecies and they refuse to give us a factions unlock pack, even though I've paid for that too. It's all about the money. If I had the choice and I thought little of the Nightfall Preview Event I'd probably be protesting the need for having an UAS pack being released at the same time... I mean how hard can it be, they've already made the skills lol.

Also, I'd like to add, PVP characters have no character development, at least I don't, because I skip all the cutscenes in HA. Sure, getting up to level 20 and being limited is alright when starting up for beginners sake, but come on... I've farmed up over 400 skill points and capped every elite, and yet I still find myself needing skills... especially now that factions is behind the corner I'm forced to not pvp and farm like crazy.

Keep in mind that the "once the skill got unlock, other character can get that skill at the trainer" wasn't in the orignal game before, it was added per suggestion and popular demand.

Sure, that's great and all, but really all it did was screw up the system and I'd have to go back and check what skills were given by quests and what I actually had to buy. And before I knew it I could get to ember light camp to UAS... which much earlier was added that was actually helpful.

I do agree that it is a drag to have to re-get the skill again. Many people suggsted that have the price of getting the already unlock skill be cheaper, or even free.

Isn't that what I'm trying to suggest... that an already unlock skill be free? Thanks for agreeing, here's a flame of balthazar I bought off ebay.

Now, here is another thing to keep in mind.... you only have 8 skills on your skill bar, and that is all you need. So in theroy, it is your playing experience that will help you reduce the grind, as you would know already what 8 skills you want on your new character, thus, you only really need to grind for that 8 skill, which should not be too hard.

Yeah I would answer but I'm busy trying to re-cap a skill from a boss at the end of this mission that my team keeps killing. Get back to you on that, I really just want Barrage for my ranger, but unable to since I lack the skill point, money, time, and other random excuse please insert here thanks, even though I got it.

Anyhow, hope that point will get cross to you. What I hope to see more of an improvement is the end-game skill point grind (for that 14k+ of exp and that 1k gold). I think it could be improve by several ways.

Sorry I was too busy blabbering to pay attention to any point. I do recall you agreeing with me, and if that's indeed the point, then thank you very much, if isn't, edit your post so it does say that so I don't look stupid. Thanks again. Or just plaing thanks if your post doesn't really say that...

My stuff in the quote above is in BOLD!

Another note I should say is that I am not sure how the Skill Hunter title would work, except that I have earned the skill hunter title, which involved me losing 3k faction at some points because when prophecies was out I got quite a few elites through faction instead of skill caps. I could give a suggestion though, and that is to keep the title, but I'm not sure how.

Two things wrong with skill capping:

Very restrictive to PVP, if you don't have it, you can't simply buy it with a skill point off hand, you have to go out and kill for it.

Part of a title I've invested a lot of time into.

So this is how I suggest to get around it -- simply give them the unlocks, and make the skill hunter title no longer have the need to cap the skill, but simply go out and kill the specific bosses, and if you need the cap you can get it, otherwise if you paid 3K faction you only need to kill it. I don't really see anything wrong with that, sorry if it's hard to swallow or poorly explained, not much I can do about that except maybe help the choking process with my hands around your neck if you disagree, or heimlich (sp?) if you agree.

No offense to anyone.

Lex Talionis · Sep 25, 2006, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kool Pajamas

Maybe something at the end of game that allows you to do this. I think that would be fair. You will still have to earn your way through like normal, then once you finish you get access to all the unlocked skills you have. Maybe you get an "Amulet of Knowledge" after you finish the game. Take the amulet to the Temple of Balthazar to give you access to all your currently unlocked skills on that character. The amulet would have to be customized to that character of course.

Now that's an idea I like far more than anything else. I'd rather have that over some green any day

Kai Nui · Sep 25, 2006, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lex Talionis

Now that's an idea I like far more than anything else. I'd rather have that over some green any day

Yeah, that's what I mean upon ascension, completion of the game, or completion of the protector title, I just want my unlocked skills eventually even if there's a little grind to it like ActionJack said.

legion_rat · Sep 25, 2006, 03:55 AM // 03:55

I liked the proph way of earning skills on quest as it made it more worth doing them. Not real sure what the OP's point is. I turned koss into a w/a just to see what he had and anything I have capped he had. I like the hell out of that >< would love to see heros in prof/factions as well. then I wouldnt have to deal with alesias bald ass running around in circles.

~the I missed the point I think Rat~

actionjack · Sep 25, 2006, 04:55 AM // 04:55

One thing I ask before on your previous unlock all skills for PvE idea thread...
is that what do you play?

The need for grind skill and skill cap are ways which Dev add as part of the game play, a goal and a reward. It is what a game is about, the overcoming of obsticles and achieving under a restruction of rules. (else you could simply take a screen shot, photoshopt it so you have 1,000 ecto, and be happy). (atleast that is my philosophy on gaming)

If the game does allow where you can easily use the skills you unlock before, what will you take your character to do? I would like your answer to be so you can try out differnt playing syle, and explore the world in differnt way... but if you answer that so it make my other character easier to farm to the latest cookie cutter build, than I would shake my head to that.

Anyhow, to restate my point.... yes on making already unlock skills easiler to get (maybe like 50% discount), more ways than exp grind to get the skill point (I think it was WasAGuest who suggested the tolken idea, more on that later), but would still require you to use a skill point and gold to buy that pre-unlock skill.

Kai Nui · Sep 25, 2006, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionjack

One thing I ask before on your previous unlock all skills for PvE idea thread...
is that what do you play?

What do you mean, "what do you play?" I play Guild Wars.

The need for grind skill and skill cap are ways which Dev add as part of the game play, a goal and a reward. It is what a game is about, the overcoming of obsticles and achieving under a restruction of rules. (else you could simply take a screen shot, photoshopt it so you have 1,000 ecto, and be happy). (atleast that is my philosophy on gaming)

Sure I'm all about overcoming obstacles, it's just I'm against overcoming the same obstacle monotonously. Seriously, the trolls outside Droknar's Forge, the Minotars in Elona Reach, and the Aatxes have been raped by just me alone enough for me to be put into jail for several life sentances, not to mention all the people probing through those places daily. I mean, seriously that Queen Kephet Marrowfeast has to do some serious breeding to keep up with the farmers so she can spread her nest all accross the world to stop this... erm... Sorry... but someone had to stand up for them. (since the muscles between their... nvm)

If the game does allow where you can easily use the skills you unlock before, what will you take your character to do? I would like your answer to be so you can try out differnt playing syle, and explore the world in differnt way... but if you answer that so it make my other character easier to farm to the latest cookie cutter build, than I would shake my head to that.

If you are complaining because you don't have skills for the latest cookie cutter build, then you probably don't have any skills unlocked period, so I don't think so. What I'm talking about is not being able to play a Me/Rt to try out some combos... I'd give a better example, but I haven't really gotten a chance to mess around with it. Maybe a Me/A to see how that meshes together, I don't really know. I'm just so limited in what I can do so I can't quite tell you what I'm missing out on, all I know is that I'm missing out. The only thing that actually brought me fun was being able to run a W/Anything in PVE because Koss had everything unlocked. I could run him as a W/Me with Illusionary Weaponry or a W/Rt as a weapon spell warrior just to try it out and see how it was without having to pay 1 skill point and 1K to see if it was worth it. I could just go back in to town, swap it out if I didn't like it, or keep it and add in other skills I thought might help. I just feel disabled for no good reason, and I don't know why you feel like you're not.

Anyhow, to restate my point.... yes on making already unlock skills easiler to get (maybe like 50% discount), more ways than exp grind to get the skill point (I think it was WasAGuest who suggested the tolken idea, more on that later), but would still require you to use a skill point and gold to buy that pre-unlock skill.

... I know your point, but why...?

I am yet again in bold, if you don't believe me, call me at 9-118-555-6729

Kai Nui · Sep 26, 2006, 03:27 AM // 03:27

I'd also like to mention something seperately, and that is that adding this would ruin the skill hunter title. Well looking through the new NightFall elites, it's pretty obvious that many skills have 0 effect and are completely worthless to cap -- not that they weren't worthless already without being able to put attribute points into them. Particularly Elementalist and Dervish... Nothing's better than casting for 2 seconds for 1 second long lasting form or using 25 energy to gain 0 energy...

BahamutKaiser · Sep 26, 2006, 05:10 AM // 05:10

An essential part of actually reducing the grind from the game as Anet claims. For the record, Grind is any monotinous chore which has to be repeated, whether you like it or not, to gain progress in order to enjoy another activity available in the game.

I have suggested this topic extensively, either reducing the cost of unlocked skills, or making them only cost skill points, or reaching a certain point in the game and accessing all unlocked skills (excluding elites, a very simple remedy), or adding a new reward to all missions which count as currency for new skills, which solves the problem of skill cost and mission population (lacking) with one improvement.

People who like to grind can grind for other things, particularly luxuries, any strategic advantage should be easily accessed to create an environment of fair gameplay so characters can compete on an even playing field more readily. There is more than enough time spend just going through the missions and quests, even more if you try to track one character through several increasing amounts of chapters, and astronomically more if you multiply that by several characters.

GW is praised for it's pick up and play genre, outstripping WoW and other dedicated online games with simplicity and enjoyability, and it is a function which needs to be followed even more closely because of the inceasing length of skill aquisition which will grow exponetially with new chapters and new classes. By chapter 4 or 5, skill aquisition at this rate will be an astronomical cost for new characters and classes, it is simply not acceptable for casual gamers, and that is what this game is, whether you worship it or grind it. This is a strategy game and all forms of grind, all of them, need to be axed, just as the advertisement they produce claims.

TheLordOfBlah · Sep 26, 2006, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Thx 4 repostin' this crap.

if you give all chars any unlocked elites, you make the storyline pointless and easy

and what happens to skill cap title?